The preface to the entire conversation was this by the custodian’s husband, “this is not an easy chapter.” I’m like, “I know, but we will get through it without any arguing, yelling, hurt feelings.” We laughed and got started.
The regular conductor wasn’t present. He had a replacement who’s been here in the past. The custodian’s husband though was here.
The second paragraph is one that has a good statement. “Yet, many are confused about who Jesus really was.” The first passage to bring out (with Google’s help) was Matthew 16:13-16. Further on it says, “Jesus is God.” I believe I was trying to get baited into a discussion if Jesus is God. I wasn’t biting and elected to move on. Page 38 there is a caption that says the following, “at his baptism, Jesus the Messiah or Christ.” I asked about this in relation to Luke 2:11. The question was this Luke correct in saying Jesus was Christ or the publication where he had to wait until he was baptized? So he asked me, “what is the purpose of baptism?” Me, “it’s a public declaration.” Him, “So he had to be approved publicly.” Me, “if that’s what you think yes I can concur with you slightly. However, when we look at the prophetic verses that foretold his arrival (Isaiah 9:6), prophecy was fulfilled, so yes he was the Christ at birth.” He concurred a little bit and I said let’s move on.
The next major point that we dwelled upon was Colossians 1:15.
They believe “firstborn” is to be taken literally. So I wanted them to look at verse 18 as well since it’s the exact some word in English. I asked (custodian’s husband saw where I was going), don’t we have a contradiction since there were people raised prior to Jesus in the Bible? Naming off examples such as, Lazarus, Jarius’ daughter, Elisha and others helped to illuminate this. Their response, “well they died, Jesus didn’t.” So I went into talking about how firstborn can be a position of prominence. Esau was the firstborn, yet he “sold” it to Jacob. When we look at the tribes of Israel, compare Revelation 7:5-8 against what’s listed in Numbers 1 starting at verse five. You will see names are out of order.
My bible has a Hebrew and Greek dictionary present. I went over in between them and read it out for them word for word (small print it has). I got agreement (surface not sure if it was meant) from the custodian’s husband that he can see how it would be considered preeminence.
From there, we looked at the inclusion of the word “other” in the New World Translation. I wanted to look at it via the JW Library App. That word is not included in the Greek. I have a copy of the 1969 Kingdom Interlinear Translation (affectionally called the Purple Eater) and showed them from there as well. I highlighted the newest New World Translation doesn’t even bracket the word. This will lead the reader to believe that this was included in the original Greek. I was able to have them think hypothetically without that word. That would then mean that Jesus wasn’t created. The custodian’s husband could see how that conclusion was drawn. The other guy-not so much. So then they said, that Jehovah created everything. I had a verse in mind. Isaiah 44:24 says “Jehovah acted alone.” They tried to rationalize by saying Jehovah acted alone through Jesus to create all other things. I said, let’s just look at the scripture and take it at face value. We don’t have agreement. Isaiah is saying it was Jehovah, Colossians is saying it’s Jesus. I was now accused of semantics and told that I’m the one cherrypicking the Scriptures. So he said, we’d have to look at all verses that deal with creation (I’m not sure that’s going to happen but I’m more than willing to do so).
This lead to the next major point. The organization from the days of Russell has relied upon John 14:28 as a bedrock principal for Jesus to not be considered God. This is an example of “reading something that isn’t there” and focusing in on one specific time. I asked in reference to cross references if they use them. New guy, “Yes” all the time. So I said, “let’s take a look at where it crosses to.” So we go off to Philippians 2:5-11. So here’s some of the things I was able to emphasize.
Verse six-did not have to regard being legal with father has a problem because he already was equal. This is interesting considering Jesus in the mind of somebody who belongs to the watchtower, is a mere angel. This is also stark contrast to Isaiah chapter 14 where a created being had a quality in the heart and he was cast down.
Verse seven says he emptied himself. Short he lord himself down to the level of humanity. Verse eight obviously he was obedient and I said death on a cross. However airport and Jesus died
Verse nine-as a result of his obedience he had a name given above every name. Similar to Colossians 1:15, the New World Translation injects the word “other” when has no actual basis to be there.
Verse 10 has every me bowing to a creative being short in heaven which is where the Father resides.
I'm explaining all this the new guy in short is sitting there with a very contemplative look on his face. He says, “it doesn’t make sense to me at all.” I believe he was never exposed to this information before. The custodian’s husband willingly listened and when I bring up examples, he actually explains it back to me so that's an awesome small victory). The new guy after a few moments carwash out. He said there is no way Jesus is Almighty. There is no way it is impossible Jesus is God. That is an impossibility that the Bible does not even teach. Given his reaction that there is some sort of an internal struggle going on at that time. What he didn't have come to mine is Hebrews 1:3. That says Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power if one uphold all things does it then mean he could be even considered as being almighty?
With that we were pretty much done for the session. I asked some questions about the “life force” as it’s a term I’ve not been exposed to outside of the Watchtower. I tired to get them to explain this. In essence, Michael became Jesus, became Michael. I asked for an explanation as to how and they said, “it was a miracle.” Interestingly, creative works were done with mere words. However, they didn’t want to really explain and started asking questions. I said it honestly doesn’t make sense. From here, we talked a few minutes about just how the organization is set up. Direct quote, “primary religious instruction comes from the Watchtower magazine.” So we ended the session there. Please pray that something would prick their hearts.