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Chapter 8-What is God’s Kingdom

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Hello and the flu like conditions are over and I was feeling pretty much normal to meet with my Witness friends.  We showed up and talked about how work life is like.  On my end, I have a newish employee who I was reasonable for giving some work too.  The assignment was to call some companies for information.  Was it done?  Nope as said individual was “too busy.”  The custodian’s husband (he works in a machine shop) said how he was in a situation where he runs two machines.  However, he was asked to run a third because he is diligent.  He said to us he wishes that he was left alone and they’d bother the guys who, “stand around and drink coffee all day.”  The elder inquired to the age of the employee and said individual is no more than 24.  He then said, there’s something with the “younger generation” that they do not make much by way of an attempt to get anything done.  With that said, let’s move on a little bit.

 

Before we get started, this chapter is one where we can find some good common ground and there isn’t a lot in some ways to dispute.  However, there are some points that are different as with every chapter thus far.  Due to the nature of this chapter, the custodian’s husband feels comfortable enough to take the lead.  He wanted to start with a video from the organization’s official JW Library App.  He was very happy to see this and quite frankly, it’s disconcerting seeing how mind control works.  Essentially, they watch and accept everything presented. 

 

The opening paragraphs pertain to the “Lord’s/Model Prayer.”  So we got started and the elder asked, “What are the main things to the ‘Lord’s Prayer?’”  Here was my response.  “This prayer, is a model for any other prayer.  I use the acronym of ‘ACTS.’  This is what it stands for (based on the book with that title):

Adoration

Confession

Thanksgiving

Supplication

 

This was a reference that they weren’t necessarily expecting as well either.  I gave this partially given the custodian’s husband a few months ago gave me regarding the kingdoms mentioned in the Bible. 

 

So we got to paragraph five on page 77.  The second and third lines essentially say that “Jesus was resurrected and ascended.” I asked about this since according to WT theology, Jesus was the Logos in the pre-human existence, only to become Michael once “resurrected.”  I asked for a clarification regarding this.  The elder (he basically did the talking at this point) said, “it’s nothing more than a role.  When he rules, he’s known as Jesus.  When he’s fighting, he’s known as Michael.”  I didn’t feel led to press but let’s take a quick look at Hebrews 2:5, 8 (New World Translation): For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come, about which we are speaking.  All things you subjected under his feet.”

 

Essentially, angels are not to rule the world as was said under inspiration.  However, according to Watchtower theory, Jesus is an angel who is to rule the world.    

 

The way the conversation ran, I didn’t feel like it was the time to ask about the first question in the sixth paragraph.  If you believe Jesus/Michael can be a king yet an angel, please read the following verses:

 

Role:

King of Kings: Revelation 19:16

Hebrews 1:7 (Servants)                   

Genesis 3:24 (Guard)                   

Acts 7:53 (Deliver law)

All powerful: Hebrews 1:3 

Detained: Daniel 10:12

We continued onto page 78  and how it deals with the 144,000.  Here’s one of the interesting things regarding the Society, the number is limited here to the 144,000 yet no where in II Timothy does it limit the number-at all. 

Further on, it refers to Revelation 5:10 and explicitly says “kings.”  However this is a case where the Bible refers to these individuals being males.  However, I’ve heard of testimonies where the person was a woman whom was anointed. 

So we chatted a little bit more about the 144,000 and how it’s a “loving arrangement" from page 79.  This is where the custodian’s husband made things a little interesting.  He said he was looking up information on the Roman crucifixion.  I found it odd but decided to interject a little bit.  I said the image on page 52 was not very accurate.  I got a tacit acceptance from both.  I spoke referring to how Jesus was scourged (the whip had bits of bone and would shred a person’s back).  I spoke of the Messianic passage of Psalm 129:3.  I also referred to Psalm 22:14.  Somewhat shockingly, they didn’t argue it.  The elder actually corrected the picture and spoke about the crown of thorns placed on the head of Jesus (which is missing).

 

This was interesting from two aspects:  The first is that the custodian’s husband was looking information up on Roman crucifixion.  They believe that Jesus died on a simple upright pole.  I was able to talk a little bit more about an image that is in the 1969 version of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation.  I was able to speak about the different set ups that were utilized to crucify an individual.  I quickly looked up the picture and was able to go over a number of them.  The book is at this link here: https://archive.org/details/ivstilipsidecruce00lipsuoft. 

 

Again, I didn’t feel that was the time to say how the Watchtower was wrong regarding the manner in which Jesus died.  I’m content at times to allow them to drop these little tidbits as I see it since they generally don’t admit anything to the regular person they interact with.  This I feel again is due to taking the time to know them for who they are as individuals.

 

This lead the elder to say (he majorly zagged) that although we have old information like this, information that deals to those from just after the Bible was written has been lost.  I literally said, “I’m going to give you a slight correction” (he looked at me slightly bewildered) and said that’s not the case.  He went on to say that it’s not in the bible, how can it be trusted? The custodian’s husband actually spoke up and said it’s historical matter.  I spoke about the Early Church Fathers.  These men were disciples of the Apostles.  The elder said, “there can’t be more disciples of disciples because John was the last one.”  I said, “let me rephrase.  They were the men who were ‘directly taught by the apostles’” and this sat much better with him.  I explained that they quoted Scripture so much that if all Bibles disappeared, we could reconstruct the majority alone from what they actually wrote. 

 

Therefore, we can get great insight from what the early church taught and believed.  Side note-this is where Unitarian groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses “fall apart.”  They tend to attribute “Christian” beliefs to the First Council of Nicaea without much knowledge prior to this point.    

 

This led to me showing them this website here so that they could see how it exists digitally today: https://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

 

When I mentioned the names Justin Martyr and Ignatius, the elder seemed to remember who it was.  He then said when the Governing Body writes material (it’s actually the organization’s Writing Committee) is not unusual for them to be referenced.  He actually proceeded to say that this material is never misquoted (cue a “poker face”).  He doesn’t know why people “attack” Jehovah’s Witnesses since all the information is freely available to them so that they can exactly how they teach everything that lines up with the bible.  If this was the case, this website wouldn’t have a reason to exist because if you look at the booklet Should You Believe in The Trinity? you know it’s not the case. 

 

Mentally, I was still trying to comprehend what he just said.  Although I’ve done my best over the past year to build up good will, either he is engaged in theocratic warfare (permitted lying), he’s trying to impress me (I said I have some familiarity with the Early Church Fathers but not much), or he’s just read what the Society spoke in reference to.  Again, if he actually looked at Society quotes like the ones I have listed here on this website, he’d know that was definitely not have made that statement. 

 

We talked for a few more minutes and the custodian’s husband wanted to show me another video.  This one pertained to the construction of Kingdom Halls around the world.  Once it was done they talked about the donation arrangement regarding Kingdom Halls.  Essentially I was told, there can be donations for the local hall then there’s another that can be made for the “worldwide work.”  This is where the money is openly said to be used for the furtherance of spreading JW gospel (this is different and accursed by Paul in Galatians 1:8, 9). 

 

What they may not know about is the numerous child abuse payouts going on right now (this is where money is going).  Something else the custodian’s husband said that was somewhat striking is that the elder has access to information that others do not.  I have a feeling that he knows about the Body of Elder’s Letters and perhaps he knows about Shepherd the Flock of God elder’s manual. 

 

He tried to equate the building of the new world headquarters to the tower of Babel.  However, here where work couldn’t go on due to confounding language, work goes on in spite of the language barrier.  He then relayed how happy his brother was in “Jehovah’s service” and how wonderful it is to build a new building.  From a sheer physical perspective, it’s alright to boast.  Spiritually speaking, I’d disagree.  They tend to boast only in the physical things they do.  It reminded me of this verse which is a contrast: But may I never boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been put to death with regard to me and I wish regard to the world, Galatians 6:14 New World Translation (I accept the term “cross” unlike the organization).   

 

We set a meeting up for next week.  So with that in mind, please pray for them since:

The custodian’s husband spoke about looking up information for the crucifixion. 

I was able to openly find fault with the Watchtower publication.  They actually agreed and went a step further as well.

The elder best I could tell doesn’t know anything about Early Church Fathers.  This is potential gold given there are statements by them affirming the diety of Jesus Christ.

 

We’ve set our meeting for March 18th to get back on our “normal” schedule.

Chapter 7: Real hope for Your Loved One Who Have Died-Part II

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Today was the first day that my friends and myself were able to meet in the past three weeks.  Both sides have had respective engagements that prevented us from “studying” What Does the Bible Really Teach? 

 

Before we really get into this, I’ve noticed that only the elder will come as the “lead” and he substitutes if sick with a “brother from the hall” who perhaps he has confidence in that can answer my questions sufficiently. 

 

As is the norm, they like to interact with the kids by saying hello when they first walk in.  Both are grandparents so they relate as their grandkids ages overlap with my kids.  They had just started The Good Dinosaur movie so the elder asked if I saw it to which I replied, “I haven’t.”  One of my kids then says, “Grandma and Pappy have it.”  So this bought some laughter with us.    

 

We were to supposed to start on paragraph 21 on page 73, however, they said it was paragraph 17 which is fine as the 21st paragraph was going to be the sticking point and major contention.  The section is under, “All those in the Memorial Tombs.”  One thing that is related to this that’s been “forgotten” is from Johannes Greber which says the following:

The translation by Johannes Greber (1937) of these verses reads as follows: “Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those were tossed upright.  In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city.”  Aid to Bible Understanding.  1971 p. 1134

What happened in 1983 is the organization stopped using him after being caught knowing he was involved in spiritism.

 

They asked if I had read the Appendix pages 212-213 that deal with the Sheol and Hades to which I hadn’t done yet.  We covered paragraph 18 and I just instinctively used the name of Rahab from a sermon I once heard.  Chatting a bit about that, she was most likely according to the writer of Hebrews and supported by phrases in the Bible, a young woman.  They seemed intrigued so I went on and talked a little further.  I asked if they’d be interested to hear more and surprisingly, they said they were.  So I said, I’d email them the message to them.  Hopefully, they’ll actually listen as it’s a fascinating message.

 

Paragraph 19 on page 72 says the following, “What about all the people who did not serve or obey Jehovah because they never knew about him?”  The paragraph goes on to say that every body will get a chance to hit the “reset” button.  Essentially, the Watchtower teaches-if you don't accept the message this time, you can do it again when the resurrection happens.  This is again a direct contradiction of Romans 1:20 but we’ll let go. 

 

The question I asked was this, “What about those who purposely chose to not serve or obey after hearing the message of truth?”  The custodian’s husband simply stared at me.  Not in anger mind you but as one who never heard a question like this before.  This was so different since it goes against their “second chance theology.”  

 

Essentially what then happened is the elder said, “well all judgment is done by Jehovah (all judgment given to the Son in John 5:22) and I can’t place myself in that position.”  While he explained, I looked at the custodian’s husband and he couldn’t really “shake” the question I had asked.  The elder eventually said, “well, the organization can’t have every little thing written down and answered in the paragraph.  It’s in Jehovah’s hands”

 

They did their best to tie it in with paragraph 20.  Here’s the counter (read I Peter 4:5) and I didn’t want to fight this one as I focused on the next paragraph which is where we will focus our attention. 

 

The paragraph on page 73 says the following, “The Bible also refers to another kind of resurrection, one to life as a spirit creature in heaven.  Only one example of this type of resurrection is recorded in the Bible, that of Jesus Christ.”  I allowed them to go through paragraph 22.  At this point, once we answered the questions, I asked this question, “Why does the organization not cover all the verses about Jesus and the resurrection?”  They both just kind of looked at me.  Side note-the organization teaches them some verses on a particular topic, but not all.  I said, you may know where I’m going but let’s take a look at John 2:18-21 (I bought this passage up previously). 

 

John 2:18-21 says the following from the New World Translation:

18 Therefore, in response the Jews said to him: “What sign can you show us, since you are doing these things?”

19  Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

20  The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?”

21  But he was talking about the temple of his body.

22  When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples recalled that he used to say this, and they believed the scripture and what Jesus had spoken.

 

The other direct account follows: 

Luke 24:36-45 (New World Translation):

36  While they were speaking of these things, he himself stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.”

37  But because they were terrified and frightened, they imagined that they were seeing a spirit.

38  So he said to them: “Why are you troubled, and why have doubts come up in your hearts?

39  See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you see that I have.”

40  And as he said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

41  But while they were still not believing for sheer joy and amazement, he said to them: “Do you have something there to eat?”

42  So they handed him a piece of broiled fish,

43 and he took it and ate it before their eyes.

44  He then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.”

45  Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures,

 

The last time these verses were brought forth raised a significant negative reaction.  However, this time it lead to a very, very good productive discussion even though at one point I was asked, “what translation are you using?”  The New American Standard Bible was my response (there’s virtually no difference here with the verses in the New World Translation). 

 

 

So they pretty much asked me to explain how this can possibly fit with I Peter 3:18 which says in part, “He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.”  At this point of our relationship and “Bible study,” we can all be a little more frank with each other (and there’s been a good number of times when we laugh) so I literally said, “the organization is teaching you to see that 'being made alive in the spirit is the same thing as being ‘made into’ a spirit.'”  Surprisingly, this wasn’t argued and they allowed me to continue.  The purpose was two fold here:

  1. Demonstrate that the organization is engaged in eisegisis (reading something that isn’t there)
  2. Flatly contradict what was said/they believe with the following statement in the paragraph:
    1. Jesus was alive again as a mighty spirit person! What Does the Bible Really Teach? 2005, 2014 revision p. 74

 

I was asked by the elder, “would you please explain how a spirit can have a physical body?”  He excused himself to the bathroom.  So for this I again went back to John 2.  Here’s the question/statement used with the custodian’s husband, “There are two types of prophets, true prophets and false ones.”  We both agreed that Jesus was a true prophet.  I said, "Jesus predicted He was going to raise himself back with his physical body." 


The significance of that is this (I didn't openly speak these):

  1. I placed the custodian's husband in a conundrum: Place his belief in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or place his belief in the Bible (for these verses, I'd say the New World Translation applies)-either way they plainly contradict one another.  Which one would "win?" The inspired Word of God or a manmade organization?
  2.  If Jesus didn’t come back to life with the same physical body, He would be a liar.  Jesus obviously never lied.
  3. To know He would rise on the third day would mean He was conscious which again goes against the belief of "soul sleep" that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society "preaches."
  4. God raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24, 3:15, 13:30).  Jesus raised himself.  Therefore, Jesus is fully God as Colossians 2:9 says (except in the New World Translation)

 

I then explained how our bodies are made alive because of the blood that pumps through it (the elder had come back by now).  I contrasted that with “being made alive in the spirit.”  I went back into Luke 24 at this point.  For our context, I started with the account of “The Road to Emmaus” (Luke 24:13-35).  Then I was able to really take the time to explain what happened in verses 36-43:

 

36: Jesus appeared to them as they were most likely in a closed room.  They agreed this was the case.

37: They thought they saw a spirit.

38: Jesus affirms that He is NOT a spirit. 

39: Spirits are not physically handled.  Jesus commands them to touch him. 

41-43: Further affirmation that he is NOT a spirit as He asks for food.  

 

They brought in how sometimes a spirit can manifest itself physically.  They tried tying this directly to Jesus.  However, I gently reminded them that Jesus said he was NOT a spirit using Jesus' own words.  

 

I explained that the physical body “powered” by blood has it’s limitations.  The body “made alive in the spirit” is capable of more even though it resides in the physical body.  The body made alive by the spirit has some extra capabilities.  At this point, I heard something MAJOR-the custodian’s husband OPENLY admitted that Jesus was raised with a physical body.

 

This led to them asking a little about “what is the spirit within a person?”  This was a question that I wasn’t expecting.  If you’re not a Witness, they are there to “teach” and you are what they call the “study” so you are to learn.  Taking the time to talk with them about this book and bringing the verses under the guidance of the Holy Spirit has allowed me to build “capital” and today they felt comfortable enough in our relationship that they can now ask me a question so they understand more what I believe.  Side note-I saw a presentation that Witnesses believe that Christians don't really appreciate the Bible.  If that's the case, these sessions we've spent with one another has been steadily eroding this notion.  

 

I openly stated, “I know at times we see different things in the Scriptures.  I want to take the time to ensure you understand where I’m coming from.  I want to make sure we aren't talking past one another.”  (This happens all too often when discussing the Trinity).  They gave an unspoken agreement and I was able to talk about the following verses:

 

2 Corinthians 4:16 (New World Translation) Therefore, we do not give up, but even if the man we are outside is wasting away, certainly the man we are inside is being renewed from day to day.

 

2 Corinthians 3:18 (New World Translation) And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, exactly as it is done by Jehovah the Spirit.

 

Romans 8:10 (New World Translation) But if Christ is in union with you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness. [Note: The New World Translation adds the word “union”]

 

To give them the floor I asked for them to quickly explain I Thessalonians 4:15-17.  The elder quickly shied away from this as this in part is a “proof texts” that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.  They further said that these verses are “not easily covered.”  I let them go and simply reinforced “that those alive shall be changed.”  At this point, the elder asked me, “Can flesh go into heaven?”  I said, “I know where you’re going, flesh and blood cannot inherit” and laughed a little bit and they did as well as he tried to "get" me.  I then took them back to I Corinthians 15:51, 52 emphasizing the word “changed.”  I was able to briefly explain with our blood that would be considered “perishable" and being “imperishable” is alive in the Spirit.  The elder and the custodian’s husband both looked like he was “processing” what I said. 

 

The custodian's husband then spoke what he was thinking, "we have an inner person to go along with the physical."  I said, "yes." 

 

Time was quickly finishing up as I said I had to get a flat tire fixed but the elder said, “well you know, you're a lot like me, you need to investigate everything.  The main point is this: Jesus died for us, accept him and follow his commands then it’s alright.”  Again, I didn’t wish to belabor any point as he had previously demonstrated he didn't "investigate" these passages which are absolutely crucial and essential to the Christian faith. 

 

Observing their facial expressions they were processing everything said along with seeds being planted along the way. 

 

We set our next appointment as I looked at the elder’s field service card of his appointments.  I am not sure of how any of his other studies are going (about 12 on his paper) but I can only hope and pray that there’s at least one person who might be asking him similar questions within his “territory” to make him question more things for investigation. 

 

Some last items and I’ll be done:

  1. We spend pretty much spent better part of two hours on 2.5 pages.  Since they unconsciously elevate Bible “aids” to the Bible itself, they keep coming so long as we talk.  I'll openly admit, it's been an exercise in patience since the "Bible study."  However, patience and persistence has "paid off" as they are now comfortable enough to questions not related to the material. 
  2. We broke with smiles and handshakes.  Keeping cordial is absolutely key as they “study” with me.     
  3. These guys and their spouses are great friends (they lived with the other as a house was being done).  They spend a lot of time with one another, hopefully they are more candid and will be asking questions amongst themselves.
  4. The custodian’s husband verbally and openly broke with the organization’s belief regarding the resurrection (however briefly but PRAISE God) by openly stating to me, “Jesus was raised in a physical body.”  Significant because that Watchtower veil was lifted at a core belief and said in front of me and I'm not in "Jehovah’s organization." 

I’ll keep praying and ask you to pray that things will keep progressing.    

Who Is Jesus Part II

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Today was a very interesting one and we got to one of the core Watchtower doctrines.  I open the door and the main conductor (who is one of the local hall elders) says, “you look like you’ve been losing weight.”  I’m like, “I don’t think I am but it’s possible.”  Before we got to that, the main conductor was back and we caught up.  They wanted to know how my week went at work.  So I filled them in.  In short, I’m doing work and someone else is taking the credit for it.  Hence he doesn’t have to do anything.  It happens but whatever.  We chatted about situations like that in the workplace.  The main conductor is having an inspection at work.  He said “I’ve been quite busy and I know what it’s like.”

So we start digging in with a slight recap from last week.  The other Witness (the janitor’s husband) says, “I was looking for that verse that has the word “other” inserted.  I showed him where it was (Colossians 1:16, 17) and we had a bit of a conversation with this.  He said there was a verse that we talked about where it was Jehovah who worked as creator (Isaiah 44:24 where Jehovah acts alone).  The main conductor wasn’t very pleased and we talked about the term “firstborn.”  I read the definition from the “Annotated Strong’s Dictionary” in the back of my New American Standard.  The conductor immediately rejected the notion regarding Jesus being anything but first created.  I re-explained everything such as the children of Israel naming order from the Old Testament/Greek Scriptures to where they are listed in Revelation.  We ended up in the Revelation 7 which is where Judah is listed as the first tribe.  This led into a brief discussion of the 144,000.  I flat out asked after they explained, “so half of the verse is figurative (the tribal names) and the other half is literal (the 12,000 per tribe).  The response I received was along the lines of, “since Jehovah is done with Israel, it is a spiritual group.”  In my mind, I was thinking, “if God is truly done, why has Israel come back together as a state in 1948?  I spoke to the 144,000 as best I could and bought in the term “other sheep” which they are part of.  I spoke how the Mormons consider the “other sheep” to be the Native Americans.  They started laughing at that notion.  We were actually able to bring in Nelson Barbour into the conversation a little as well since he and Charles Take Russell associated with one another. 

So we stated at this point digging into the text.  We picked up on page 42, paragraph 15.  Nothing super notable happened as we went through.  However, on page 46, the verse referenced at the top of the page is I Peter 2:21-23 (New World Translation), In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you,+ leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. 22  He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23  When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously. 

As an elder, he is well aware that he has access to the “secretive” elder’s manual titled, Shepherd the Flock of God.  There are the monthly Body of Elder’s Manuals and Letters.  There’s the child abuse database that the Watchtower will not acknowledge.  Here’s one story regarding it here at PBS.

The one website that deals with this issues is Silent Lambs. 

Here’s another resource that you may find handy for insight.

Back to our subject matter.  The last two paragraphs were where we spend 45 minutes in deep discussion.

I asked the question, “What does the organization believe about the resurrection of Jesus?”  The elder said, “We believe what the bible teaches.”  So I ask, “what happened to Jesus’ body?”  The answer I got was, “Jehovah dissolved it into nothing.”  That was my time to capitalize on this.  So I said, let’s read I Peter 3:18.  It’s rendered in the New World Translation this way, For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 

Notice the words, “made alive in the spirit.”  The Jehovah’s Witness essentially sees, “Jesus was made into a spirit.”  This is where things got interesting.  The main conductor had to use the bathroom so I waited for him to get back and I said, “this isn’t completely fitting with what I see in the bible, do you mind taking a look at some verses?”  “Of course not” is the response I get.  So here we go, I read the following verses :

Matthew 27:60-66

John 2:18-21

Luke 24:37-43

From there, I explained things.  Let’s address each one:

I Peter 3:18-I explained that being made alive in the spirit is completely different from being made into a spirit. 

Matthew 27:60-66-The question I asked is this, “if Jesus was to be raised as a spirit, what really was the point of the rock in front of the tomb since Jehovah was ‘going to dissolve the body (the guards would have prevented the body from being taken)?’” 

John 2:18-21-The simple question is this, “How could Jesus raise up a physical body if it was going to be dissolved and he be raised as a spirit?”  This is the set of verses that became a HUGE sticking point.

Luke 24:37-43-“Why is Jesus openly declaring that he is NOT a spirit and demonstrates this by being handled and eating food?”

I posed all of this as an “individual who’s on the outside looking in.”  I wanted a good explanation. 

This is where the battle began.  On one hand, as I’m asking these questions, the other JW admitted, “I see why you’re saying there’s a physical body for Jesus at the resurrection (that was a big open admission but the elder quickly tried to take control).

The notion of “believing what the bible teaches” was paid lip service.  The verses above are not only what the organization refuses to believe but it’s in stark contrast with organizational teaching.  That’s the battle-is the bible correct which contradicts the organization or the organization correct which contradicts the bible?

So the elder “strikes back.”  The most devastating set of verses was Luke to him where Jesus is declaring, “I’m not a spirit.”  He says, well you know, the bible says, “flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of heaven.”  I wholeheartedly agreed with him (I Corinthians 15:50).  He bought in Hebrews 9:12, 13 as well.  I said was able to directly address using I Peter 3:18 (made alive in the spirit) and Luke 24:37-43.  I responded that Jesus prior to his death had a body just like ours where blood is “what made it go.”  However, his resurrection body was one that wasn’t made alive by blood, but it was “made alive by the spirit.”  I again agreed with the verse in Hebrews.  However, in the Watchtower mindset, one becomes a “spirit creature” when resurrected. 

He stated that angels can materialize and take different forms.  This again I agreed with.  However, if Jesus would have done that he’d have violated I Peter since it would be considered “deceit” in the aspect that he would have “manufactured" the wounds in his body.  The janitor’s husband bought up the “sons of God and daughters of men” from Genesis.  I agreed that could have been the case.  The conductor further tried to bring in another set of scriptures.  He brought up the account on the Road to Emmaus covered in Luke 24:13-22.  He asked me for a quick synopsis of this passage.  So I gave it and knowing the little bit about Watchtower theology, I knew where he was going to go.  He focused on verse 16 which says (NWT), but their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 

So I used a simple word picture as an illustration.  I said, (pointing to the elder) you are Jesus in this instance.  John (not the janitor’s husband’s real name) and myself are on the road to Emmaus.  Jesus (elder) didn’t change his form.  The eyes of myself and John were prevented. We were personally prevented, you (Jesus) didn’t change at all nor does the scriptures say so.  This didn’t go over well since the organization teaches Jesus materialized in different forms.  So he goes for soul sleep….

I’m asked to look at Ecclesiastes 9:5.  I’m like isn’t this about soul sleep?  They said, yes it is.  Hence Jesus could not have raised himself from the grave.  I thought about connecting this to Romans 10:9 and I Peter 1:21 where “God raised Jesus” from the dead and connecting this back to John 2:18-21.  However, I didn’t.  The seed was already planted and I was allowing them to do damage control at this point.  I briefly bought in Revelation 6:9-11 where individuals who were slain are “crying out and speaking”  This means one is conscious after death.  However, I allowed them to give an explanation and again asked, “what’s symbolic and what’s literal?  So I said, we can address soul sleep another day.  Both sides agreed to finish for the day. 

Normally they want to chit chat but today was not the day.  Please pray for these fellas as in the case of one (janitor’s husband) he is receptive in some ways to what I say and he’s making the attempt to “be a Barean” and search the scriptures with what I’m saying.  The elder is a bit of a different matter.  He listens to what I have to say yet I get the Watchtower “scripted answer.”  Also, I was requested to find information on what the Jews thought in relation to the afterlife, is it a conscious existence or an unconscious one?  Please remember to pray for these folks.